Outer Circle members, please post your ideas, connections, and observations to each phishbowl here. In order to receive full credit, you should post three times and use textual support.
You should:
a. address questions asked by the leaders
b. respond to ideas brought up by discussers
You can:
a. reconnect to focus questions
b. link back to previous discussions
c. share ideas from your own annotations, as they relate
Happy Blogging!
Why did Daisy marry Tom instead of waiting for Gatsby?
ReplyDeleteI think Gatsby is the classic "one that got away". Daisy had moved on and her interest was now in a happy, healthy marriage. Only on the eve of her wedding did she begin to question the security of the marriage she was entering. I think, simply put, it was a combination of second thoughts and "what ifs". What I am curious about is how long these second thoughts persisted and how it currently affects her marriage to Tom.
DeleteI think that Daisy married Tom because she was hurt when Gatsby left. She had cared for him a great deal which is evident in her meltdown the night before her wedding. After that it talks about how after Tom and Daisy got married, "I thought I'd never seen a girl so mad about her husband," (76). I think she was trying to find a sense of security instead of being so emotionally vulnerable
DeleteGiven that Gatsby has been so reclusive and mysterious in his actions and words, is there really any reason for Nick to trust him, or even entertain the idea of helping him?
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting question specifically in the context of the novel, because while this is a legitimate question, Nick's trust in Gatsby becomes a central piece of the plot. I don't think Fitzgerald would say that anything in Gatsby is reasonable, but rather leaves the reader to figure that out. So, I think your question is good, but I also think it's what Fitzgerald wants you to ask and yet gives no definitive answer.
DeleteI think there is all the reason in the world for Nick to trust him. Just because he is reclusive and mysterious, doesn't mean he is a bad person. In fact, I would argue the opposite. He doesn't create conflict and when he does show mystery he also shows a kind heart. Obviously we shouldn't read too much into it at this part in the book. Without trust, nobody would get anything done. He can be seen as "innocent until proven guilty" and even has the advantage of generosity with the quality of parties he hosts.
DeleteI feel that there are several different kinds of trust. Due to the way Gatsby is described on page 2, I instinctively trust him as a person, even though it is clear that we can't trust what he says. So perhaps Nick should help him even if Gatsby is not telling the truth.
DeleteAs per the initial inner circle discussion of the slow revealing of Gatsby's identity, it is important to recognize not only that this is a mystery internally in the story to the characters, but also that their internal dialogue reflects this in a way that involves the reader.
ReplyDeleteTake, for example, the following conversation:
"Who is he?" I demanded. "Do you know?"
"He's just a man named Gatsby."
"Where is he from, I mean? And what does he do?"
"Now you're started on the subject," she answered with a smile.
Gatsby's identity almost becomes a game that everyone, including the reader, must play.
Why might Gatsby intentionally develop such a mysterious persona? What advantages are there in forcing others to play such a game?
DeleteI am of the opinion that Gatsby is criticizing the way we make assumptions about reality. [Rants about metaphysical existence for a few minutes]. So in summary, the only way to force the reader to question identity is to conduct this novel as almost an experiment.
DeleteIn connection with the discussion about the importance of Gatsby's past, Gatsby himself actually places great importance in his history, or at least in hiding it. On page 65, Gatsby tells Nick that he is "the son of some wealthy people in the Middle West...". However, it's immediately apparent tot he reader that he's lying the whole time. He calls in the 'Middle West', instead of 'Mid-West', and thinks that San Francisco is in that area. Obviously, Gatsby knows the game of who you are/where you come from matters in high society, so he tries to play along. It speaks a lot to Fitzgerald's own take on Modernism's sense of self, since it's very difficult to not focus on the opinion of others.
ReplyDeleteDo you take this as an intentional flaw in Gatsby within the context of the plot or a broader criticism of society?
DeleteGatsby seems like the kind of person who would be smart enough to create a better backstory. I think that it's almost as if Gatsby is purposefully waiting for someone to realize that his backstory is flawed.
DeleteI think that through making it an intentional flaw within Gatsby, Fitzgerald is making the broader criticism of society. If you'll notice in Chapter 4, when Nick is listing off all of the people who attend Gatsby's parties, none of their pasts are mentioned. On pages 62-63, it only focuses on those people in the present and mentioned in the future, not anything that could be considered personal. I think it speaks a lot to how Fitzgerald felt about image; all history is for the individual, unless it can be shaped a certain way. Gatsby shapes his future, in order to be accepted by society. Fitzgerald seems to feel that while sense of self is important, a show must be put on in order to retain that sense of self.
DeleteRyan, if it is a criticism on the time, then that would make a lot of sense. Considering Gatsby is the "Great" namesake of the novel, he is entwined in its story and legacy. The Roaring Twenties were a time of happiness, boom, and parties. Gatsby embodies each of these. However, he has layers, he is secretive, which is also a perfect connection to the time. Prohibition was in full force, so in order to gain the copious amounts of alcohol needed, there was some illegal activity. Not that it was uncommon, but the times were furiously marked by this style of crime. From the organized gangs to the moonshiners, the twenties were a time of crime. So Gatsby's secrets connect to the background of the parties of the Twenties.
DeleteWill poses a question that asks what Gatsby's motives are in the book. For me I think the idea of love is what Gatsby wants most. He has all the money he could ever need, but money can't buy him love. Perhaps his desire for love and a relationship is why he asks Nick to get Daisy to meet him. Also this is kind of related to Fitzgerald's own life; he was a bit of a romantic.
ReplyDeleteI think Gatsby is confused about the idea of happiness. He feels that he has tried everything and seen everyone with his lavish parties, and he is frustrated and desperate to find something more.
DeleteI agree with what you are saying about Gatsby and that is making me wonder about Daisy. Do you think that she was trying to escape the possibility of real love with Gatsby and trying to replace that by trying to buy love with her marriage to Tom (at least in the beginning)?
DeleteI agree with what you are saying about Gatsby and that is making me wonder about Daisy. Do you think that she was trying to escape the possibility of real love with Gatsby and trying to replace that by trying to buy love with her marriage to Tom (at least in the beginning)?
Delete@Sophie A. - Like I said to Rachel, I think that there was a real chance of love with Gatsby and Daisy. But I don't think she was trying to replace it, I think she just found Tom and things got rushed and she brushed aside her real feelings for the fun of it all. It seems so modern that she just rushes into marriage eve though it seems like she loves Gatsby instead.
DeleteSomething that intrigues and confuses me about Gatsby is that he constantly contradicts the expectations others have for him based on the image he has created. He puts forth an image of being well-experienced in a lavish and fascinating lifestyle, so theoretically he should have a variety of interesting stories to tell. On the contrary, he seems to have "nothing to say". He puts on dramatic and extravagant parties, so you would expect him to be very formal and maybe even pretentious about his level of wealth, but he doesn't bother to introduce himself as Gatsby to Nick and he seems uninterested in flaunting his status. Why does this make Gatsby such a difficult character to understand, and how does this trend reveal a theme?
ReplyDeleteI would say that these things make Gatsby a difficult character to understand because it makes him really hard to pin down. As readers we like to have the archetypes of the jock, the villain, and so on. Because Gatsby seems to be neither good nor bad, it makes the readers frustrated as they can't completely understand him. This trend reveals the theme in that one should wait to truly know who someone is before they proclaim to know him.
DeleteThis very much reminds me of Jacques Derrida as Ackerman was talking about. Derrida was super difficult to pin down, and even went so far as to go years without allowing any photographs of him. Then, he allowed it again because the "Image of my non-image has become my image." (So he didn't want to have a public image because he would thus be generalized and taken for granted). So it's almost as though Gatsby is just sporadic and doesn't want to be pinned down or figured out.
DeleteHaley- The fact that Gatsby cannot be established as good or bad is similar to Pudd'nhead Wilson. It makes you analyze what truly makes a person good or bad, or if people can even be categorized as such.
DeleteI think that Fitzgerald wants to make it hard for readers to pin him down as a character and figure it out. Having a character (especially one that the book is name after) shrouded in mystery and unable to be figured out, makes for intrigue for the readers and they want to read more, to realize what is real about him and what is not.
Delete@RachelS2018 - I think the reason Daisy didn't wait for Gatsby like you state is because in that day in age, no one waited. The modernists just wanted to go, go, go. I think it was just in her/their nature, to just jump into things like marriage. Which is why Tom and Daisy's marriage is a joke
ReplyDeleteVery true, the moderns were about getting into more open relationships and caring about themselves overall. She didn't care about Gatsby, she cared about herself. However, their are romantic qualities in this book that become stronger throughout the plot. This is why I think the book became so critically acclaimed even in this day in age.
DeleteWhen Nick first meets Wolfsheim, he says that "after a moment I discovered his tiny eyes in the half-darkness" (pg 69 in my book). Do you draw any connections between the fact that he has small eyes and his personality?
ReplyDeleteThere is definitely a lot of symbolism with eyes in the story. Perhaps small eyes indicate a limited perspective or others' inability to trust him.
DeleteYay, eyes!
DeleteThere's probably a metaphor here, and I would say that it is that small eyes represent secrecy and ambiguity?
Wolfsheim seems very deceptive since he himself "fixed the World Series". Eyes can often tell a lot about a person, like if a person is really smiling their eyes will be different than when that person is faking a smile, and when people lie they often look away. Wolfsheim's small eyes are probably reflective of his ability to lie and deceive because his small eyes make it harder to judge what he is thinking, especially in the "half-darkness.
DeleteI think that Daisy married Tom because she couldn't wait for Gatsby anymore, combined with the fact that Tom really swept Daisy off her feet at first. The book had said , "She [Daisy] used to sit on the sand with his head in her lap by the hour, rubbing her fingers over his eyes and looking at him with unfathomable delight. It was touching seeing them together....". I believe that Daisy found someone that the time had been just as good to her as Gatsby, and that is why she decided to marry him.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Daisy wanted Tom just as much or that she wanted Gatsby more but because she couldn't have him she needed a replacement?
DeleteDo you think that Daisy may have been trying to block out Gatsby and was being a 'fool' when it comes to Tom like she wanted her daughter to be on page 17, "And I hope she'll be a fool-that's the best thing a girl can be in this world, a beautiful little fool."
DeleteDo you think that Tom was really good to her or did she just want to believe he was a good person, because a few weeks after Tom and Daisy's wedding night, he seems to have had an affair with one of the chambermaids from their honeymoon, "Tom ran into a wagon on the Ventura road one night...the girl who was with him got into the papers, too,...she was one of the chambermaids at the Santa Barbara Hotel"(77). He is also currently having an affair with Myrtle so it is hard to believe that he was a good person while he and Daisy were dating.
Delete@Rachel - I think that Daisy got ahead of herself, and was swept off her feet at first, falling for someone who was not who he claimed to be. Like Henry had said in the fishbowl, modernists wanted to go, go, go in life, and always move forward. Daisy being so dazzled by Tom, combined with her progressiveness as a modernists, combined with her being alone for so long, would make for her wanting to marry Tom.
DeleteI agree, Gatsby seems like quite the lonely fellow, who attempts to fill the void inside him by throwing extravagant, legendary parties. Like he said in chapter 5, he cares what people think, but it seems like he only cares what a select few people think. He does seem like a lonely guy who also seems like a dishonest guy, he shrouds himself in mystery.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think he shrouds himself in mystery? I agree with the fact that he seems dishonest, the way Jordan says he lied about going to Oxford, that's why I think he is mysterious, I think he has something to hide. But what do you think?
DeleteA part in the book that I found very random was when Nick and Gatsby were driving to lunch and they pass by a hearse, "A dead man passed us in a hearse heaped with blooms, followed by two carriages with drawn blinds, and by more cheerful carriages for friends. The friends looked out at us with the tragic eyes and short upper lips of southeastern Europe, and i was glad that the sight of Gatsby's splendid car was included in their somber holiday". When reading this chapter, that piece of text had stuck out to me as random and unimportant to the plot of the story, but knowing Fitzgerald and the time he put into writing, I know that random is not a thing he writes about. So my question is what is the significance of the hearse, and Gatsby's effect he had on strangers? Does it symbolize anything deeper in the text or reveal a major theme of the book?
ReplyDeleteI can not be certain, but if I had to guess I'd say it is just character building for Gatsby. The fact that it might of cheered up their day shows Gatsby's good intentions, and also his growing acceptance for trust from the reader.
DeleteRight next door to the lavish, extravagant party, there is death. There is sadness, there is pain. No matter how hard the people try to ignore these issues, they always reappear, directly on their ornate doorstep. No matter how much liquor they pour down their throat, these issues never quite fade into the noise of the night. Fitzgerald is deliberate, and was a feature of this lifestyle, so he probably observed something like this firsthand, based on his alcoholism and party going. Fitzgerald knows this pain and sadness cannot be ignored, and incorporates that into his novel along with everything else that makes him human.
DeleteI feel like it is significant in some way Jacob, but I had your same question. It must have been added to show Gatsby's affect on the people around him, and his obvious wealth. I'm not smart enough to figure out if that has a deeper meaning or not.
DeleteOn page 66, Gatsby discussed going to war, saying, "It was a great relief, and I tried very hard to die, but I seemed to bear an enchanted life." This caught my eye because it doesn't make much sense- who goes to war trying to die? This seems like another important Gatsby peculiarity. Maybe his lavish lifestyle is in the interest of moving toward death rather than toward greater life.
ReplyDeleteWorld War One was marked by expend-ability. Men were practically shell magnets. Making it out of the meat grinder alive is remarkable in its own right, especially in this war and especially taking "two machine-gun detachments so far forward there was a half-mile gap on either side of us where the infantry couldn't advance" (66). If Gatbsy truly wanted to perish, these insane manuevers would have gotten him ever closer. Maybe these remarks are just for the story, but there is some validity in connecting it to the "Lost Generation" argument. If Gatsby's life truly has no meaning to him, then it would be nothing better for him to perish in the muddy fields of the Argonne. Gatsby wanders, his only true passion escaping him, trying to fit in and end his suffering.
DeleteNatasha asks a really good question about Gatsby. She asks why if he knows there is all the rumors about him, he doesn't just come out and tell everyone the truth? I think the reason he doesn't tell anyone is because I think he likes the rumors. He is a modernist, he feeds off drama and social speculation. His reputation is everything. It's manipulation in his own way.
ReplyDeleteI can see that but I think that he also might not want everyone to know the truth. In chapter 4 he mentioned
Delete"something very sad that happened to me long ago," (66). I think that he doesn't tell everyone the truth because he wants to forget that or at least keep that private and not public information
@Sophie A. - I hadn't really thought of that, that is a really good point. So do you think then, that the rumors are good at hiding his tragedy that happened long ago, or hurt him by putting him under the spotlight?
DeleteI agree with you Henry, Gatsby seems to feed off of the drama and these rumors. Like Sophie's quote, "something very sad happened to me long ago", and the fact that he is not willing to tell Nick at the most convenient time, when they're having dinner makes for a not only frustrating character, but mysterious one as well, which is what he likes. Nick describes his mysteriousness as annoying, " I hadn't the faintest idea what "this matter' was, but I was more annoyed than interested. I hadn't asked Jordan to tea in order to discuss Mr. Jay Gatsby" (67).
DeleteHenry and Sophie, since he is so idealistic, this tragedy is probably him losing Daisy to Tom. The war hero Gatsby can't even look at her husband, as Fitzgerald states, "'How've you been, anyhow,' demanded Tom of me 'How'd you happen to come up this far to eat?' [Nick] 'I've been having lunch with Mr. Gatsby.' I turned toward Mr. Gatsby, but he was no longer there'" (74). Whether he is just afraid of getting pummeled, his tragic past with Daisy prevents him from truly living.
DeleteI want to share a tactic that has helped me analyze the novel a bit better. Looking at everything as a symbol often leads to either dead ends or stretches that don't quite work. I feel like the optimal way to analyze this story is to identify holes in the plot, then look for evidence to patch up those holes. If something is mentioned over and over, it is worth looking at no doubt, but little problems can often draw away from bigger problems which can be problematic.
ReplyDeleteI like this idea!
DeleteGatsby is incredibly blunt when informing Nick about himself. He says "My family all died and I came into a good deal of money" (43). Why does he insist to tell Nick about himself without asking, but then shares practically no information?
ReplyDeleteEverything Gatsby says makes him seem like he's lying but his actions, especially his smile, makes Nick trust him, "The smile comprehended Montenegro's troubled history and sympathized with the brave struggles of the Montenegrin people..."(66). Why does Fitzgerald describe Gatsby's smile so much?
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, a fake smile seems to be one of Fitzgerald's primary symbols to represent facade.
DeleteA smile is a projection of how you present yourself. Gatsby's presentation of himself is great, but he lacks substance.
Delete@BellaS2018 and @RyanS2018- It reminds me of a polite southern good ol' boy. It's like he has fantastic people skills but maybe not great book skills.
DeleteOn page 58 in my book, Nick has a mini fight with Gatsby. I think this might be there only to show how quickly the conflict can go away. The line directly after is "After half an hour, the sun shone again..." (58). I honestly think the whole paragraph was just there to show how meaningless some things are, regardless of how it can be tied to the plot.
ReplyDeleteChapter 6 Phishbowl
ReplyDeleteDescription of Daisy's voice:
ReplyDelete"It was the kind of voice that the ear follows up and down, as if each speech is an arrangement of notes" (pg 9)
"The instant her voice broke off ceasing to compel my attention, my belief, I felt the basic insincerity of what she had said" (pg 17)
Description of Gatsby's smile:
"It understood you just as far as you wanted to be understood, believed in you as you would like to believe in yourself, and assured you that it had precisely the impression of you that, at your best, you hoped to convey" (pg 48)
“He had probably discovered that people liked him when he smiled” (pg 100)
Thoughts? Comparisons?
And do you notice any other characters who have similar qualities?
DeleteThey both seem to have the perfect voice/smile. Something that makes them so likeable even if they have a wrong in their personality.
DeleteI think it is incredibly important that both of them do not have both. The qualities are unique to them and end up defining them. Gatsby has such a good smile because he doesn't need to open his mouth to wow people. He doesn't say an awful lot at his parties, but he's still the life and host of them. On the other side, Daisy is manipulative and her voice is seen as good because it is what really causes her influence.
DeleteBoth of them have unique qualities that provide them with charisma and, as a result, power over others. They're truly the original "power couple".
DeleteDo you feel that Gatsby's love for Daisy is selfless or self-centered? Why?
ReplyDeleteI feel that Gatsby is being self-centered in the way that he is becoming obsessed with Daisy and he is not allowing for her to really have much freedom in what she wants. I don't think that this is an act of selflessness because there isn't a way that he is helping Daisy with being married to Tom but also falling in love with Gatsby.
DeleteI think that Gatsby's love for Daisy is self-centered. I haven't really seen him truly wanting her happiness. He was upset after the party because Daisy didnt have a good time but I don't think he was really concerned for her. I think he was wanting her to fall in love with him at the party and was upset that her reaction wasn't what he expected
DeleteI agree with Chauntel and Sophie. Gatsby is being self centered with wanting Daisy to leave Tom for him. Although he is very concered with Daisy liking him, Gatsby does not care about Diasy's feeling, but he cares more about his dream coming true.
DeleteGatsby's love for Daisy seems more self-centered, because he is holding onto a past image of her that perhaps is no longer there. Gatsby states that "She used to be able to understand" (109) and "I'm going to fix everything just the way it was before. She'll see," (110). He idolizes an image of her that no longer exists, and holds her to that past standard unconditionally.
DeleteHe may feel like it is selfless, because he is taking her away from Tom, but he is really oppressing her in another way than Tom.
Gatsby believes his love for Daisy is selfless. I do think he believes he loves her. But he is more in love with his own idea of her, which makes his love ultimately self-centered.
DeleteGatsby's love for Daisy seems to be both selfless and selfish. He wants her to leave her husband for him, and just expects that she still loves him. This is a selfish reasoning, especially given that they have only been reunited for a couple of days. However he also invented a new version of himself just for her, and never went out of his way to go and find her and make her come with him.
DeleteThe fact that he revised his chapters 7 times, each time, is incredibly impressive. That is how you know that every word he says has meaning, every symbol is truly a symbol and it has actual meaning. when it comes to the value and depth of the story. That is how you know that the love story has meaning and how materialism affects every day life in East and West Egg.
ReplyDeleteAs chapter 6 focuses a lot on the ever pressing matter of social classes, I do think that it is very hypocritical because both Tom and the Sloanes have the same amount of money as Gatsby, but because of the fact that Gatsby does not live with the same grace as the others which makes him more of n outcast. Why is not acting the same with your wealth such a big deal to the people on the East Egg?
ReplyDeleteAbout Tom: "Her husband among various physical accomplishments, had been one of the most powerful ends that ever played football at New Haven"
ReplyDeleteAbout Gatsby: "'I wouldn't ask too much of her,' I ventured. 'You can't repeat the past.' 'Can't repeat the past?' he cried incredulously. 'Why of course you can!'"
I think that Tom and Gatsby are similar in what they want but in different ways. Tom wants to repeat the past and go toward his glory days again from High school. Gatsby also wants to repeat the past and have Daisy back again. Thoughts?
Interesting insight. I think they both are very similar and they want the same things, but the only thing separating the two is morals. No matter what kind of things Gatsby has done, he does have stronger moral than Tom, I feel. They both want to repeat history, but for different means. Tom, for glory. Gatsby, for love.
DeleteI think that's an interesting connection. Do you think that either of them can truly be satisfied if they are constantly wanting the past?
DeleteWhy was Fitzgerald relevant in the time, and why is he still relevant?
ReplyDeleteFitzgerald was very relevant during the time because of his different style of writing. Fitzgerald wrote a tale of wealth and prosperity of the 20's. Readers connected with these ideals and made his writing important to the Modernism movement.
Fitzgerald's writing is still relevant today because of the constant revision he took in his writing. Fitzgerald wrote each chapter was written many times. This provides relevance of today because it allows readers to see the deep meanings.
I think it also is because everyone can connect to the façade of the characters and their flaws. All of us have nostalgia of our childhood or "the good old days, when our mamas sang us to sleep but now we're stressed out". We want the good times and we look over the bad times within those good times. Everyone also brings up the façade that everything is fine. We don't want to be vulnerable. We think that vulnerability is a bad thing because of our fear.
DeleteI think that it also connects to us today through the universal themes such as love and longing. We still experience those feelings today and can relate to the characters.
Delete(Nice reference Tatiana)
“It is invariably saddening to look through new eyes at things upon which you have expended your own powers of adjustment” (pg 104). What do you think this quote means?
ReplyDeleteI believe this quote is meant to provoke the feeling of nostalgia and regret in the reader. Everyone has things in their past that they used to love, and now that they've grown up, they want to love it just as much but have found out that they can't. Fitzgerald means to have the reader feel sympathy for Daisy and Gatsby, as they both once felt intense love for each other, but the reader can infer that things have changed too much for this to end well.
DeleteI think Nick is trying to say that after you have come to have judgement on something, made your own ideas and thoughts and conclusions about something, it's sad to see someone else coming to other conclusions.
DeleteIn this case, he is referring to how Daisy is judging the party, and how it's differs in from his own conclusions. She doesn't enjoy the festivities, while they have become something of a common place event to him for which already reserved judgements.
Gatsby is just as bad as Tom because he is also just wanting money and wanting the attention from Daisy, but I think that he has the redeemable quality of being able to love. Many times in society this word looses meaning and I think that Gatsby is one of the people who can give this word meaning because of his constant longing and pursuit of her. I do think that this is a redeemable quality, but it can also be the point of his undoing.
ReplyDeleteI think that Tom's redeemable quality is being able to love. What do you think Daisy's redeemable is, or do yo think she even has one?
DeleteI don't think that Tom has the quality to love seeing as he cannot even be faithful enough to love one person. I think that Daisy's quality has not been made present yet.
DeleteEvery single character has a flaw in them. This connects to the focus question: How is Fitzgerald's life represented in this text? This novel shows that everyone has a darker part to them. This is like how Fitzgerald lead a harsh life, and through Gatsby he says that these lesser qualities of a man are part of everyone.
ReplyDeleteOn page 69, it is stated "Tom was evidently perturbed at Daisy's running around alone, for on the following Saturday night he came with her to Gatsby's party". Do you think Tom is really suspecting something? If so, does he feel it is morally okay for him to cheat and expect it not to come back to him?
ReplyDeleteI think Tom is always paranoid of Daisy hitting him with some of his own medicine. Tom believes that he is above everything, that he can do anything and still be above it all. He thinks that because he is married to Daisy and "loves" her, that it is okay for him to cheat. But if Daisy cheats, Tom will flip out, say it's wrong, and fling accusations all over the place. He believes that he can do anything because he thinks he is a good person, but it is quite the contrary.
DeleteA lot of connections in the novel have been made between the characters to Fitzgerald. And among other theories, it's been theorized that the different characters all display something that Fitzgerald has done or represents. Do you think Fitzgerald intended this book to be his last goodbye? An autobiography of sorts?
ReplyDeleteThis is a really interesting theory. As I read, I've almost viewed the book as Fitzgerald's cry for help. In revealing the issues of the time period, he reveals his own struggles, and in hindsight we can see his difficulties clearly through his writing.
DeleteI don't think he intended it to be a last goodbye at all. He was still happy working hard on stories after this. However, I do think his lifestyle and his emotions heavily drove each character. I'm willing to bet that a lot of the minor characters were loosely based on people who were in Fitzgerald's life, or possibly even objects. It would be hilarious if a character was based off of Hemingway, since they were friends. I'm going to end my response with that question. If any character was based of Hemmingway, who would it be?
DeleteI think that all authors use usually one character to represent themselves. Fitzgerald just used many characters so that the reader can't say that one character is himself. It's like he's slowly revealing himself.
DeleteI agree with Tatiana that all authors drop some of their personal life in their works It adds a different level of understanding and depth to the book. The Great Gatsby is neither a goodbye or an autobiography. It is a story.
DeleteFitzgerald's backstory is important in understanding this story because I feel like a lot of this story is a window into Fitzgerald's subconscious and insecurities. I also think as this story goes on, we will start to like Gatsby more and more, because he is a very interesting person, he's an enigma. Gatsby has definitely ridden the line between legal and illegal, and many times he has crossed it. He also has a lot of depth and he's hard to understand, but as the story goes on, we will learn more about him. His loneliness is depressing but it also gives meaning to the love story between them.
ReplyDeleteOn page 94 Nick says “...perhaps my presences made them feel more satisfactorily alone.” What is Nick's involvement in Daisy and Gatsby's relationship? Why is this significant?
ReplyDeleteI feel that in some ways it was Nick who brought them together and now Nick is the one who keeps them together and makes it so they are more comfortable together. Almost as if Nick is their way to connect their love from the past to their present day.
DeleteI feel like neither Gatsby nor Daisy have the strength to be in a relationship through all their problems alone. They obviously show desire for each other, Gatsby stating "He wanted nothing less of Daisy than that she should go to Tom and say: "I never loved you". Daisy has a sense of security with Tom, something you stated in the circle, and Gatsby was the nervousness and threat of Tom to worry about. Nick is almost like a bandage for their interactions, he patches up everything and shapes them in a way that things can feel alright while being a polite and honest person.
DeleteNick is the connection between Gatsby and Daisy after it was lost in the last five years, and also a sort of security against outside forces like Tom and other people that could encroach on them.
DeleteHe plays an important role because without Nick, Gatsby and Daisy really have no lasting connection. Nick consistently must tell Gatsby about how things exist in the present for Daisy against what Gatsby remembers and enforces from the past.
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ReplyDeleteWhen talking about Tom and Myrtle, Catherine says that "neither of them can stand the person they're married to" (pg 33). Why is it that so many of the characters in this book are unhappy with their marriages? For example, Tom has this thing with Myrtle and Daisy seems to be happy with Gatsby. Why would marriages continue if both parties are unhappy?
ReplyDeleteI think it's because divorce was frowned upon during that time as it is now. The people in these marriages want to keep up the illusion that they are fine and happy. That everything is perfect.
DeleteChapter 7 Phishbowl
ReplyDeleteI think that Gatsby would never accuse Daisy of being the one to drive the car, because he depends way too much on her opinion of him. Everything that the he has ever done in the past five years have been for her, and even now he depends on her 'love'. He shuts down his parties, which brings him some of the fame he craved, on, all because, "... the whole caravansary had fallen in like a card house at the disapproval in her eyes." It's always been about Daisy and her happiness; he would sacrifice himself for her.
DeleteHannah, he already has sacrificed himself for her. "'Yes', he said after a moment, 'but of course I'll say I was'" (143). Whether he will receive Tom's rage or the extent of the law, Gatsby will never cease to maintain that he was the one who hit Myrtle. Even as there are hints of Daisy drifting back to Tom, Gatsby still wants to prove his worth and show his devotion.
DeleteI think Nick is trusted by everyone because he is the only one that is in touch with "reality". This is an interesting view point though because Nick who the story is told by, thus it being a coincidence that everyone tells Nick everything...
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Nick is not truly the trustworthy one?
DeleteI think this is an interesting point because I'm not 100% sold on the idea he is in touch with reality either. It seems like he just floats from one event to the next. He is kind of guilty by association.
DeleteThe fact that Nick is apparently the only truthful one and the only one in touch with reality, we get the full picture of this story. Without the omniscient view of Nick, we would not get the entire story. Do you think there is some bias in the storytelling and perception of Nick?
Delete@Chauntel I think that Nick is the most trustworthy out of all the characters so far. He is the only one who hasn't cheated or lied, and remains the most honest out of all the characters so far. Like the inner circle had said, he gives his friends his honest opinion and helps them, I say all of this however based on what Nick has chosen to tell us and his perceptions. For all we know this story could be completely different from the point of view of someone like Gatsby. All of what I have said is dependent upon the fact that Nick is as honest as he says he is.
Delete"The room, shadowed well with awnings, was dark and cool. Daisy and Jordan lay upon an enormous couch, like silver idols, weighing down their own white dresses against the singing breeze of the fans" (121-122). Why do you guys think that Fitzgerald included this deja vu saying that this is almost the exact same scene from earlier in the book?
ReplyDeleteI think Fitzgerald shows that, while our ideas of Daisy and Jordan have changed, their ideas of themselves haven't, and they are still looking to present themselves as they did at the beginning. They still want a "foolish" image of themselves and Nick and Gatsby getting to know them better hasn't changed their ideals.
DeleteIn chapter 7 it seems as though Daisy is being loyal to Tom without trying to hurt him while also enjoying the true conflict that is presented between Gatsby and Tom. Do you think that Daisy will choose love over loyalty?
ReplyDeleteI think that Daisy will choose to be with Gatsby because of the fact that they have true love. The only problem is that I do not think Gatsby is not loyal in the whole relationship because of the fact that he keeps so much hidden about his life. The fact that he has to a large chunk of his life from people makes it hard for anyone to be in a relationship with them.
DeleteBraxton, some of the text near the end of Chapter 7 supports the opposite of this. "They weren't happy, and neither of them had touched the chicken or the ale -- and yet they weren't unhappy either. There was an unmistakable air of intimacy about the picture, and anybody would have said they were conspiring together" (145). Like the inner circle said, we don;t know what Daisy is thinking, and this meeting could be forced or something of the sort, but this event and the specific phrasing about it cannot be ignored.
DeleteWhat do you all think of Nick and Jordan's relationship? Fitzgerald has been toying with their romance all book but it hasn't really come to be yet. What do you think of the two?
ReplyDeleteI think Fitzgerald uses Nick and Jordan as a way to show who Nick is and that Nick seems to be the only one who isn't absolutely enthralled in a relationship
DeleteI think that Nick and Jordan aren't really a couple though they act like it. Nick seems to be in love with Jordan's fame not really her as a person.
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DeleteI think that Fitzgerald had this not quite romance in the book to point out how relationships are built on nothing. As Bella said in the inner circle, the only relationship in the novel that is truly valid is between Nick and Gatsby, because it's built on truth. I think that Fitzgerald is illustrating how people will be together out of convenience or expectation, not because they don't have anything in common. Fitzgerald probably saw a lot of baseless relationships in the Jazz Age, especially in the circles he ran with.
Delete@TatianaB - Do you ever see them together even though you think he is just in love with her fame? On the same tone do you think Daisy is just in love with Gatsby's money?
DeleteI know that Nick starts obsessing over Jordan at the end of Chapter 3. I think that Daisy thinks that Gatsby is a great guy but does not really love him for his personality. Even though she is very wealthy, she wants more, which is a natural human thing. She is greedy for money. She wants to be higher up in the upper class.
DeleteI think I found another example of litotes in Fitzgerald's writing. On page 138, Fitzgerald wrote, "Myrtle Wilson's body, wrapped in a blanket, and then in another blanket, as though she suffered from a chill in the hot night," (Fitzgerald 138). Any thoughts on this?
ReplyDeleteI think this is a good quote regardless. Her "chill" was Tom driving by her house with another woman in his car, the effects of Mr. Wilson's discovery, and ultimately the blinding flash that ended it all.
Delete"'Her[Daisy] voice is full of money'. He[Gatsby] said suddenly"(pg 120). What do you make of this? Do you think her voice is full of money? Do you think that Daisy is taking advantage of Gatsby?
ReplyDeleteI believe that Daisy likes Gatsby and thinks he is a great man, but what really draws her close to Gatsby is the immense amount of money. She was already married to someone who had massive amounts of money but now only seems to go for more.
DeleteI think that Fitzgerald here is really emphasizing the focus on wealth in the novel and in these character's lives. Daisy's power in the novel has stemmed for her voice, and is the reason that she always has so much focus on her. Her secret is revealed, and it shows how people are drawn to money and power, and she represents the allure of that situation. But the big issue is, she also represents how devastating that quest for her attention/money can destroy you. After all, look at all Gatsby has done to himself and in the name of Daisy and her voice.
DeleteI know that the billboard is a symbol, I just don't know what it is symbolizing. What do you guys think it symbolizes?
ReplyDeleteI think the billboard symbolizes the fact that it seems like somebody is always watching. Nothing ever really stays a secret and no matter what anybody does, there is always somebody watching with great interest, ready to do anything necessary.
DeleteIn connection to what Jay is saying, it brings me back to the Puritan unit and how society holds everyone to certain standards.
DeleteI think that the eyes on the billboard are a very interesting symbol that Fitzgerald put in the story. I feel like this symbol shows that God is watching over all of the society, and judging the moral wasteland that all of these people are in.
Delete@JayK: Do you think that an example of this would be Tom investigating Gatsby's past, which Gatsby wanted to hide from the public?
DeleteI think that the billboard symbolizes God, like we were talking about yesterday, but the God of West Egg. This is God is vulgar and scandalous, much like West Egg, and an embodiment of this sign is Gatsby himself, who as we discussed is the "son of God". This would make sense in the fact that modernists at these times only had the world they perceived, so their own God was not what common-people's was like at the time, on page 104 Nick describes one of Gatsby's parties, "...I had merely grown used to it, grown to accept West Egg as a world complete in itself." (104). The West Egg has a god of their own that is just like them, vulgar and scandalous, and the son of God, Gatsby, embodies everything that the West Egg stands for, partying and drinking, as well as receiving praise of those from the West Egg, much like a son of God would.
DeleteIn Chapter 7 I think Daisy is torn between Tom and Gatsby. Tom is heartbroken by Daisy's affair, and Gatsby can't stand to lose her again. Gatsby wants the last five years to disappear so him and Daisy can have the life he always wanted, and her love for Gatsby right now isn't enough. "'You loved me too?' he repearted."
ReplyDeleteI think this is a very interesting point and it kind of goes back to what we talked about the other day about our dreams becoming our nightmares. Love is supposed to be clean and lovely right? Well, in the case you pointed out, wrong, love is a mess.
DeleteIn a quote from chapter 6, "The truth was that Jay Gatsby of West Egg, Long Island, sprang from his Platonic conception of himself." and in another quote from chapter 6, "He talked a lot about the past, and I gathered that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps, that had gone into loving Daisy."
ReplyDeleteWhy does Fitzgerald put so much work into stressing the fact that you can lose yourself in love and your own emotions?
At one point in chapter 7, Gatsby gets so fired up at Tom over Daisy and goes so far as to say that Daisy doesn't love Tom, and the only person she ever loved in her heart was Gatsby. Do you think that Gatsby's statements have some truth to them, or do you think he is just spouting nonsense to help his case?
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't think his comments have a lot of truth, even Daisy admitted to loving Tom.
DeleteI think that in reality they don't have a lot of truth, but Gatsby dreamed that Daisy didn't love Tom. When he was saying it, he was hoping that they were true.
DeleteDo you think that Daisy feeds off this drama between Tom and Gatsby like she has before or do you think this is too real of a situation for her to enjoy? At the end of chapter 7 when Tom and Daisy are together, Nick sees them and describes their situation together, "They [Tom and Daisy] weren't happy, and neither of them had touched the chicken or the ale-and yet they weren't unhappy either" (145). What is the significance of that quote in context to my question?
ReplyDeleteI think that Daisy loved it until it became known by all, she loved the competition for her, but then when the two men turn to her and ask which one she identifies with, now she has to have an answer, which I think is where the enjoyment ends.
DeleteI think that Daisy is too involved in the situation to take enjoyment out of Tom and Gatsby's conflict. Daisy and Tom's prior affairs have kind of fallen apart at the point of that quote, and they both realize that perhaps their foolishness has lead to their own sadness. Even through the discomfort, they might realize they could be happier together than they are trying to purse others.
DeleteBy pushing Daisy to confess her love for Gatsby all these years, it is actually driving her away. Gatsby is getting more and more desperate and the conflict between Tom and Gatsby is too much for Daisy. "But with every word she was drawing further and further into herself, so he gave that up, and the only dead dream fought on as the afternoon slipped way, trying to touch what was no longer tangible, struggling unhappily, undespairingly, toward that lost voice across the room." (134)
ReplyDeleteGatsby, after waiting so long will lose Daisy again, I think. Daisy realizes the drama her affair has made and Tom will do anything to keep her love, because he now realizes how easily his wife will go if he pushes her away.
Conrad said, "at least by what we know", and this bring up the question of what Nick does not know and what we do not know. Do you think that there are things being left out of the story that Nick does not know about? If so, Why would Fitzgerald leave things out? How could this affect the story?
ReplyDeleteI think that things are left out due to the story being in first person. I think that it's the whole Modernist thing. Nick doesn't know everything about everyone. Just things about himself. He only knows himself not other people. This does cause the reader to think about how the story would change with different perspectives. Also the reader can think of conspiracies that may or may not be proven.
DeleteWhile I think we know most of what goes on (especially because Nick is such a middle man), I think the most important thing we don't know is what Daisy is thinking. I think Fitzgerald does this for dramatically irony, and it leaves the reader always pondering things from Daisy's point of view "Who does she love? Why did she say that? Is she in it for the money?"
DeleteI feel like this is really told from the perspective of Fitzgerald, something stemming from his experiences. Fitzgerald lived through this time in his own eyes, and Nick is an extension of Fitzgerald. So either he is trying to graft it onto the general populous, or he is trying to craft a better story. Fiztgerald would not have known everything that went down between the other people he encountered at his parties, only what he was told and what he observed. If Nick is truly an extension of Fitzgerald himself, and he is the "most honest" then these are the best examples that Fitzgerald can give of honesty. He won't make any inferences, just showing the blatant facts and words.
DeleteLastly, Tom is now struggling for Daisy's love because he has now lsot Myrtle. Before, if Daisy left he still had the love of Myrtle, but now faced with losing the both of them, and being all alone, Tom is going to do anything to get Daisy back, including putting the thought of Gatsby killing Myrtle into Wilson's mind. We are now at the very beginning of the book, Gatsby is fleeting from Daisy's love and Tom will find a way back into Daisy's heart. "He put his hands in his coat pockets and turned back eagerly to his scrutiny of the house, as though the presence marred the sacredness of the vigil." (145)
ReplyDeleteTyla asked a question in the inner circle over whether or not Mr, Wilson knew that Tom was cheating with his wife? Also I'm fairly sure Daisy knows about Tom's mistress but does she know it is Myrtle? Could this be why she hit her?
ReplyDeleteDaisy is smarter than she appears to be so I think it is very possible she knew it was Myrtle. However, why would Daisy feel anger or want to hit her if she loved Gatsby?
DeleteWell, maybe it was in spite? But also she does say she loves Tom too, so maybe she just hates this lady for ruining everything.
DeleteIt's pretty unclear whether Daisy knows who she was or not, but Gatsby obviously does not know who this particular woman is when they hit her. He seems to think Daisy doesn't either.
DeleteThere were two cars going opposite ways at the time of Daisy's death; one going toward the valley of ashes seems to represent death and the one going toward New York could maybe represent life or they seem to represent different choices that lead to life or death. What do you think the two cars, or possible the roads taken, represent?
ReplyDeleteI think that they represent our choices. One choice could mean life or death for ourselves. Each choice creates a separate timeline of events, like how each road leads to a different place.
DeleteI feel like the two cars, as well as representing life and death, can also represent choice. The cars represent the decisions that lead to either death and despair (the valley of ashes) or success and new beginnings (New York)
DeleteA lot of the time in our lives we enjoy more of the chase than we like the result. Do you think that this is happening with Gatsby because of the fact that he is chasing the Daisy from 5 years ago and not the present Daisy?
ReplyDeleteYes CHauntel. This is what is happening to Gatsby. We have talked previously about he fell in love with the Daisy from five years ago, and now he is trying to revive the past. He is attempting to get that Daisy back, but she has changed, got married, and things. Its like when you are really excited to get something, you get it, but it does not match up to your expectations.
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